Is International Rugby A Joke

Discussion in 'Rugby Union Discussion' started by Jabba, Apr 22, 2014.

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  1. HeathDavisSpeed HT Davis

    Actually, I think it might be time for the All Blacks to play a once-a-year Test somewhere like the Cook Islands and play all the best up-and-coming youngsters. Once they have an ABs cap, voila, they can't play for another nation. Cynical, yes. But no more cynical than the behaviour of some of the NH nations at the moment, and you'd soon shake loose the players who don't have their heart in the fight for an ABs slot, if they turn down the opportunity.
     
    HeathDavisSpeed, Apr 23, 2014
    #21

  2. Jabba HJ Bots

    Especially if it's the younger guys. Bit different when they leave at 27-29 and maybe get 10 caps when they are 32 or something but why should we put these guys through our youth structures and into our age group all black teams to just jump ship when they are no longer at the top of the pack like they are used to being
     
    Jabba, Apr 23, 2014
    #22

  3. Roaddogg AJ Izett

    I just don't like the message its sending to young Irish (in this case) players


    It would suck to know you are missing out on a place to someone whos only there cause they couldn't make their own countries team
     
    Roaddogg, Apr 23, 2014
    #23

  4. Magrat Garlick M Garlick

    Not profitable, so they won't do it.

    Own arse, bite.
     
    Magrat Garlick, Apr 23, 2014
    #24

  5. HeathDavisSpeed HT Davis

    Make it against Samoa and host it in South Auckland and bugger the consequences if the ABs lose.
     
    HeathDavisSpeed, Apr 23, 2014
    #25

  6. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    I'm mildly bored, so thought I'd amuse myself by selecting a foreign-born England XV.

    It's depressingly easy, actually.

    1) Alex Corbisiero (USA)
    2) Dorian West (Wales)
    3) Victor Ubogu (Nigeria)
    4) Simon Shaw (Kenya)
    5) Mauritz Botha (SA)
    6) Hendrie Fourie (SA)
    7) Steffon Armitage (Trindad & Tobago)
    8) Billy Vunipola (Australia)

    9) Dewi Morris (Wales)
    10) Mike Catt (SA)
    11) Lesley Vainikolo (Tonga)
    12) Riki Flutey (NZ)
    13) Manu Tuilagi (Samoa)
    14) Semesa Rokoduguni (Fiji)
    15) Delon Armitage (Trinidad & Tobago)
     
    The Boy Brumby, Apr 26, 2014
    #26

  7. Furball G Furball

    Would be spectacularly illegal.
     
    Furball, Apr 26, 2014
    #27

  8. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    Yer crims have done pretty much exactly that for their SoO eligibility, tbf.
     
    The Boy Brumby, Apr 26, 2014
    #28

  9. BoyBlunder BOY Blunder

    I find it difficult to class the Armitages as not English though. I played against the youngest (Guy) at age group level when I was 13

    EDIT: Culturally I mean
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
    BoyBlunder, Apr 26, 2014
    #29

  10. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    Yeah, I mean, to be fair, a lot of the players I listed were educated in England or moved here before the age of majority.

    I'll mark them with asterisks:

     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
    The Boy Brumby, Apr 26, 2014
    #30

  11. Howe JHF Howe

    Birth doesn't really mean anything there. There's a bigger distinction in this between Armitage and Vainikolo than there is between Armitage and, say, Ben Morgan.
     
    Howe, Apr 26, 2014
    #31

  12. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    In the grand scheme I agree, but just regarding union, place of birth does confer the right to play in that country.

    If I could've been arsed I would have gone to Wiki and might've been able to come up with a properly foreign XV.

    Off the top of my head I could've had Matt Stevens, Stuart Abbott, Henry Paul, Shontayne Hape, Martin Donnelly (yes, the NZ test cricketer, no less) & the English-born but Australian-accented Michael Lipman.
     
    The Boy Brumby, Apr 26, 2014
    #32

  13. Cribbage RG Cribb

    Obviously labour laws are different in different countries, but for a better example - to qualify for England in cricket, you now have to wait seven years if you start the qualification process after your 18th birthday. Even just extending that rule to rugby union across the world would solve a lot of these problems IMO.

    I think too much is made the supposed illegality of qualification rules for national sporting sides in the EU anyway. I think a lot of what people say does indeed apply to domestic sport, but there's a "sporting exception" to the law enshrined into common law, relating specifically to national sides.

    http://ribasjuris.com/the-sporting-exception-in-eu-law/
     
    Cribbage, Apr 26, 2014
    #33

  14. Magrat Garlick M Garlick

    Which is fair enough, but I don't think the sporting exception extends to denying citizens of a country the right to represent that country in a sport divided by national lines. And citizenship can be acquired through residency (although it's a laborious process unless you're mates with the dictator).

    Now, rugby union's residency rules are less strict than countries' residency rules, but I think taking the option away altogether would be impossible.
     
    Magrat Garlick, Apr 26, 2014
    #34

  15. Cribbage RG Cribb

    I actually think this exact thing could happen with the new cricket rules.
     
    Cribbage, Apr 26, 2014
    #35

  16. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    How do people feel about "once committed, no way back" aspect of union's eligibility?

    Unlike, say, league and cricket when a player represents a country at full or "A" level he's forever theirs (there was a semi-famous dispute between Australia and Wales about Jason Jones-Hughes, who had played for the Australian Babarians, which the ARU argued was their de facto "A" team, but who wished to transfer his allegiance to the country of his parents' birth & in which the IRB ultimately ruled in Wales' favour over); I think I'm more in favour than against, but in some cases ex-ABs would unquestionably improve (say) Fiji, Tonga or Samoa if they could play for them once a reasonable time after their last NZ appearance has elapsed.

    England does sometimes rather make a mockery of the rule by using ex-Kiwis in our union side (Paul, Hape & Vainikolo).
     
    The Boy Brumby, Apr 26, 2014
    #36

  17. Magrat Garlick M Garlick

    Actually, it appears it already has with the old ECB cricket rules: citizenship in itself was not enough, there was a residency requirement on top of that (otherwise KP could have begun playing pretty much immediately). Never mind.

    I'm surprised that holds up, but then again I can't think of a situation where anyone would successfully win a case for it, given that the selectors could always give the 'we don't think they're good enough' defence.
     
    Magrat Garlick, Apr 26, 2014
    #37

  18. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    It's a bit weird we insist on it, IMHO.

    Especially when in the Pattinson, D case we clearly used the letter rather than the spirit of the rule. Seemed Darren was hosed down after fitting slates on some Melbourne roof and ushered into the test XI with undue haste.

    Under Moores's (previous) watch, I believe...
     
    The Boy Brumby, Apr 26, 2014
    #38

  19. Quaggas O du Toit

    Or, in some cases, if you have a sackful of cash.
     
    Quaggas, Apr 30, 2014
    #39

  20. Furball G Furball

    If someone lives and works in a country long enough to acquire citizenship then I don't see how you can prevent them representing that country.
     
    Furball, May 1, 2014
    #40
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