English Football 13/14

Discussion in 'Association Football Discussion' started by Baxter, May 20, 2013.

Page 49 of 85

  1. PienaarColada DH Mulray

    When you have a go at your own fans and start blaming people like Alan Sugar for a 'media agenda' then you're in trouble.

    He'll do well in Italy or Spain. Time for him to give up in this country.
     
    PienaarColada, Dec 18, 2013
    #961

  2. Lukic L Popovic

    You tell me.
     
    Lukic, Dec 18, 2013
    #962

  3. Uppercut CB Faldo

    Well you're the one arguing that he should have kept his job. It's an odd angle to take. "He doesn't add anything at all to the club, so he shouldn't be sacked".

    He's basically just in charge of tactics, and he keeps getting the tactics epically wrong. Maybe Baldini's done a crap job with signings too, but AVB had to go regardless.

    It's also his job to be the fall guy when things go wrong short-term. But at least he's competent at that bit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
    Uppercut, Dec 18, 2013
    #963

  4. Eds E Ames

    It's a bit difficult to completely alter your tactics from game to game though. I imagine AVB would have gone into the season with a backline in mind of Rose - Vertonghen - Chriches - Walker with Lloris in behind. With JV and VC, you've got probably the best high-line CB pairing in the league and Lloris is a fantastic sweeper keeper and obviously Rose is a step above Naughton. He's had injuries to three of them, plus BAE has decided he doesn't really want to play football at all.

    Spurs knew what they were getting in for in that AVB was going to play a high-line regardless of basically anything (see: Chelsea reign). It was Levy & Baldini's job to get the players in to accommodate that and they did, I guess, but not in enough depth.

    The reason the tactics looked so, so badly wrong on Sunday was mainly because Jordan Henderson decided to morph into Aaron Ramsey. Liverpool hadn't really played with proper runners from midfield before this.
     
    Eds, Dec 18, 2013
    #964

  5. Lukic L Popovic

    I'm not arguing he should've kept his job at all, in fact I said he deserved to be sacked a while ago. I was just alluding to how you were saying that the director of football is the most important person in determining the club's on pitch success in the other thread and belittling the role of the manager, when in reality the manager is still just as important. Both AVB and Baldini have fucked up and as a result AVB has lost his job.
     
    Lukic, Dec 18, 2013
    #965

  6. Magic AJ Parker

    I hope he stays in England and goes to a club who's willing to actually back him.

    Sitting 7th after 16 games with practically a brand new roster, just shows how ridiculously fickle elite sport can be.
     
    Magic, Dec 18, 2013
    #966

  7. Uppercut CB Faldo

    It's a fair call on the injuries. But playing a high line with Capoue and Dawson is totally incompetent whichever way you look at it. Tactics are about getting the best out of your players; AVB did the complete opposite, and it wasn't the first time. This from a coach who sells himself as very strong tactically.

    Sure, Levy and Baldini should have known that's what they were getting, but that doesn't excuse AVB. Levy and Baldini should have known he was too dogmatic to do his job properly, but AVB shouldn't have been too dogmatic to do his job properly. Neither come out of it especially well, but as I said, it's part of the head coach's job to be the fall guy when things go wrong.

    I don't really agree that we can put it down to Henderson happening to have a good game, though. His runs from midfield were so much better than usual because Spurs left so much space for him to run into. Suarez and Sterling were getting in behind pretty regularly too.
     
    Uppercut, Dec 18, 2013
    #967

  8. Eds E Ames

    Can't really argue with either of the first two paragraphs but again I'll push the injuries line here. Sandro coming off for Holtby really opened the floodgates for this, for obvious reasons. What else could AVB have done? He could have brought Zeki Fryers on and pushed Capoue into DM but equally, Fryers v Suarez? No ta. Only other real option was Gylfi who would've had a similar result to Holtby.

    Then, he had to make a sub at half-time due to injury (Fryers, who should be his 4th choice LB, on for Naughton) which limited him massively. When he actually made a sub to push on and chase the game at 2-0 down, he brought a CM off for a winger and pushed Chadli inside, a fair call I guess. But then, Paulinho, his only real CM remaining on the pitch gets himself sent off. Spurs finished without any of their starting CMs on the pitch and none of that was AVB's fault.

    I understand the high-line strategy was wrong, but equally, lots of things out of his control went wrong in the game and if Spurs lost 2-0 he just wouldn't have been sacked.
     
    Eds, Dec 18, 2013
    #968

  9. Furball G Furball

    Injuries might have been out of his hands but it's also AVB's fault that yesterday's result was so unacceptable.
     
    Furball, Dec 18, 2013
    #969

  10. Uppercut CB Faldo

    Yeah, losing 2-0 wouldn't have had the same effect. It's not just about the dropped points. He needs to maintain credibility with his players, especially if he insists on using an unorthodox system. It's really tough for them to come away from such a heavy home defeat and still believe playing a high line is the way forward.

    Also, if we're pinning a lot of the blame on injuries we should probably mention his policy of picking a strong team in the Europa League.
     
    Uppercut, Dec 18, 2013
    #970

  11. Baxter MJ Deane

    You can certainly blame him for rushing Sandro back from injury too soon
     
    Baxter, Dec 18, 2013
    #971

  12. Eds E Ames

    Not sure that helps in the context of the game though. If he didn't play Sandro Spurs would just have been battered for longer.
     
    Eds, Dec 18, 2013
    #972

  13. Baxter MJ Deane

    Well I'm not sure I agree, he certainly wouldn't have hamstrung himself nearly as much tactically.
     
    Baxter, Dec 18, 2013
    #973

  14. cpr CP Raftery

    Two assumptions I'm uncomfortable with

    1) That Spurs would've held it to 2-0 with 11 men. They were poor with 11 too remember.

    2) The board have reacted to shippping 5, not the offering no attacking threat again at home despite spending £100m+ on attack minded talent.
     
    cpr, Dec 18, 2013
    #974

  15. BoyBlunder BOY Blunder

    Completely agree with all of this.

    You could also argue that in the lead up to the red card Spurs looked the most likely to score out of the two sides. Yes Liverpool could have been 4-0 up by that point but then you can't be surprised they weren't when they only had one consistent finisher on the field. Sure spurs didn't have a shot on target but the stats don't tell everything and they were starting to look threatening.

    EDIT: Although Zeki on for Sandro would probably have seen him go to LB, Naughton to RB and Walker to CB.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
    BoyBlunder, Dec 18, 2013
    #975

  16. Furball G Furball

    15 goals in 16 games.
     
    Furball, Dec 18, 2013
    #976

  17. BoyBlunder BOY Blunder

    2-1 >>>> 5-0 though. Which is the point
     
    BoyBlunder, Dec 18, 2013
    #977

  18. cpr CP Raftery

    It is a point. A point that's pretty much irrelevant. Because AVB wasn't sacked for one hammering, he was sacked because the team have been pretty much abject going forward all season, and it's costing them.


    Of course, 2-1 is a straw man argument in that it's implying Spurs would've scored with 11 men against a very good team, something they've been failing to do against weaker teams all year.
     
    cpr, Dec 18, 2013
    #978

  19. Lordeman JA Robertson

    I hate the quoting of the price tag of the signings as if it proves something. Technically they also sold £100m+ of talent
     
    Lordeman, Dec 18, 2013
    #979

  20. cpr CP Raftery

    Not a fan of that argument myself, was wheeled out a ton when we sold Ronaldo.

    However, whilst they sold one man for £85m, they spent just as much on a number of players to fit into the team and supposidly strengthen, or at the very least, plug a leek (geddit) in their midfield. Failed miserably, and in a way exposed the failings that Bale covered over last year - something a manager shouldn't have let slide until he had gone.
     
    cpr, Dec 18, 2013
    #980
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