Round 3 - Native Tongues v Masterbaiters

Discussion in 'CPL AFL Matches' started by Skippos, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. Skippos SM Morgan

    He hasn't been online m8
  2. MASTERS S Masters

    WTF, i was expecting a belting !!!!

    GN WIN !!! and Bundy :wub:
  3. MatthewJay TA Miokovic

    fuark Walters dominated bro
  4. MatthewJay TA Miokovic

    Impressive hit out stats too
  5. Mousey AJ Son

    Yeah if this is how it's gonna be my interest is now 0
  6. Skippos SM Morgan

    Yeah well I've got very little interest in having someone who expects the result to always go towards the favourite in the comp either

    just like in real life upsets happen. Masters' team is now considerably better that he's got ryder in there offering him a big body in the ruck and at least something better than what he already had down fwd. I wouldn't have had him as the spoon favourite after that game, it's diggler imo. should be heef but his team is overperforming.

    if you can't handle it when an upset happens then to be honest it'd make simming your games a really not nice experience. theo got done by paul today rather surprisingly and didn't give a shit, just remarked on how well Merrett went.

    There's a reason I was happy to give extra in a deal which saw you get ryder as opposed to getting a better deal elsewhere; because I knew Ryder would prevent this shit from happening and it'd make my life far easier; was worth giving a little bit extra to get harps to take the deal involving you over masters. Still wasn't enough though. I gave you advice re: getting a ruck at all costs, I gave you advice about not going too tall in the forward line (brown, vardy, gunston, white and stringer is 5 KPFs. Can you imagine that functioning IRL especially given only Gunston is really a great forward out of those 5. That kills you too. But you ignored both suggestions really and while I don't proclaim to be god; this did happen.

    But yeah, upsets happen. If the favourite won every game then quite frankly this wouldn't be even a worthwhile competition to sim, you could just do the results on paper.

    I'm sorry you lost, but it's not like anyone's out to get you or the sim is broken; not having upsets is far less realistic especially when your forward line was more dysfunctional than Diggler's midfield.

    Also doesn't help when you name no bloke on the bench to cover the backline (bar picken who you said had to tag which ruled him out) and don't leave any instructions about who covered it. If I kept to the picken instruction it really had to be kelly and/or bartel who covered defence or just let the defence get fatigue fucked.

    So yeah if you want out I'll try and find a replacement. Not the ideal situation but I definitely would enjoy simming half as much if every game I had to worry about how 'i wonder what will happen if the result doesn't go as expected' or even tempted to keep on re-simming until the right result happened. Like I wouldn't, but it'd be far easier than than dealing with your reaction when i've worked my ass off to make this an enjoyable and more realistic competition than we've had before.

    so if you're out that's fine just let me know. but i'd much prefer you stayed in. if you're just gonna submit a lineup and then not care though there'd probably be someone who would care.
  7. Mousey AJ Son

    Yeah I wasn't talking about the loss, I'm talking about this obsession with ruckmen and their over importance in the comp.

    How it's gonna be refers to the future - so if this is going to be a persistent problem (one that I believe is absolutely ridiculous) I don't see how I'm going to give a rats arse come finals time.
  8. Mousey AJ Son

    As for my forward line, yeah I get that I'm playing some talls but as we discussed earlier, you said you can toggle whether to play tall or not. Clearly I'm not going to have them all playing tall. Stringer, Gunston and White are all very good at ground level so this really shouldn't be much of an issue (because frankly they should never all be on at the same time).

    I can spell it out in detail in the instructions, but I thought we were using common sense and limiting tactics for you.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  9. Skippos SM Morgan

    i'm replying in depth to the other post but re: tactics i'll answer briefly - this isn't gospel ftr, this is my interpretation of footy but also seems to be how the sim works

    - jesse white playing as a 'non-key' or 'small' doesn't mean he's going to substitute for a good small forward balancewise. He's not going to pick up the crumbs or any of that

    - Jack Gunston at hawthorn playing third/4th fiddle to hale/roughy/franklin worked, yeah. But he's still 6'3/6'4 kid and he still occupies more space than a puopolo in the forward line to play his natural game.

    - if you've got 4-5 big guys running around in the forward line even if 2-3 of them are playing as non key (while they might take up less space) by sheer virtue of the fact that they're still relying on things like marking a lot more they can't just sit out the back and crumb like smalls do. They've got to be trying to get into position to mark and all that. toggling key off doesn't make them act like a crumber, it just makes them less inclined to crash packs, lead from the square and take priority for delivery in the fwd line and other things someone like Gunston would do if he were the #2 fwd as opposed to the #4

    - ergo even with them on non key they're still causing the forward 60 or so to be cluttered as fuck. they're cutting each others lines off more often than you'd normally see and generally being cancerous to one another.

    Stringer's been playing as a key forward out of the pockets/ff when he's down there but really as opposed to the other 4 he could certainly sit on a flank and essentially play as if he's a spare midfielder (as stringer is probably the first player ever who's developing his game as a key forward before moving into the midfield permanently, he's a midfielder at the core still) and that might loosen things up, I don't know, but my point is that the forward line structure just wouldn't work in the AFL. There's not enough space and you don't need 4-5 leading targets for the midfielder to kick to. It'd clutter the mind for one but it's just a clusterfuck. If you think it'd work irl, well, that's fine. I just don't.

    re: tactics yeah Gunston/White (one of) had their KPP turned off in the game. I listened to the tactic. Stringer/Gunston/White are very *clean* at ground level but they don't make up for not having a crumber and they do cluster the fwd line when the ball's in the air. When the opposition have the ball too and they're inevitably matched up on a smaller, more agile/quicker defender than them too what impact will they have defensively in stopping the rebound and locking it in?

    I use pretty basic guidelines regarding tactics. I try and make it the same for everyone (relatively even bench time for all, occasionally not kpps out of necessity unless there's a reason to have someone on the pine for a lot longer) but even then if I divert from the 'generic script' tactic wise then i've got to justify it if it doesn't work/justify why i'm going a bit extra wrt tactics for one bloke but not the other and all that. You see the tactics in my thread? I'd have no problem with anyone else doing that many if not a little more. I just didn't want the conditional and itemised lists of rotations and conditional matchups and all that as that's too hard. I'm normally happy to work with however much/convoluted the coach wants it though as it takes it out of my hands which to me means there's less scope for me to be accused of helping one team out in a game and all that. Plus I enjoy applying others tactics and seeing how they work. I think there was only 5 minutes when all were on at once, though and there was a reason for it. Normally it's only 4 of them.
  10. Mousey AJ Son

    Here's the way I saw it without Rioli

    Vardy leads up the ground and plays 50-80 out
    White also plays around the flanks
    Brown leads from the goal square
    Stringer plays small
    Gunston's that third tall that sits about 20 out
    Obv Walters is the crumber

    Obv Clark comes through for Vardy

    Then Vardy is out in the last quarter and opens it up more

    I thought my half forwards would be playing half forward, not inside my 50. That's what's annoying me. I've got these mobility bigs who are good around the ground yet they're apparently not doing so for whatever reason. It's frustrating and if a team I thought I built well (considering Jolly's depature and the whole he left me) can't work in this I probably won't be as interested - I'm sure you can understand that position.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  11. Mousey AJ Son

    Can see why you wanted him so desperately.
  12. Skippos SM Morgan

    I'm always open to making changes. I make plenty to try and get a more realistic output so I'm happy to discuss anything about the sim and all that.

    Do you think rucks are actually OP in the sim though? Or is it you're annoyed at how everyone rates rucks so highly?

    Because I do think rucks are overrated by the coaches here. Could be a bit of groupthink perhaps I don't know but I certainly believe that the ruckman is the most important component of a team, followed closely by CHF, x-factor midfielder and elite shutdown defender. There's a reason I was the only person to draft a ruck in the 1st round let alone the 2nd. It's not because the sim favours rucks but because I do. I just think you need to get that first use of the ball; it's a personal belief and one I've proclaimed quite a bit and it's seemingly caught on.

    Perhaps people are mistaking my belief about rucks as not a personal belief but a statement about how the sim works.

    Quite frankly I'm still as mystified with the sim as some of you are at times. I get a lot of it but some of it I really don't. I really have no fucking idea how important rucks are. I'd hope they're important but quite frankly if they're not I wouldn't be entirely surprised.

    At worse though any team will be disadvantaged if they get 10 less occasions where the midfielders are given first use without having to work for it though. That much makes sense. Any more than that and I don't know.

    I mean sometimes we get KPDs rack up 25 touches. Doesn't mean those touches were influential towards the result just like I doubt winning the ruck matters for more than 3-5% of the influence to the result; no more than winning a battle on a wing would, probably. I don't think there's a trend of the team with the better ruck winning, and there's probably a small trend of winning hitouts/winning the game as in winning hitouts you've essentially won 1/18 positions so you're already slightly better off. But I doubt it's a trend that isn't present IRL.

    Then again you are a geelong supporter so you've grown up winning shit and not having a capable ruck so I get why you rate rucks so lowly :p
  13. Skippos SM Morgan

    White's the kind of player who wouldn't be OP in this anyway. He's at best a fringe to low 22 player IRL and with more even squads here (i.e. blokes like sylvia/ibbo/clarke who can't make freo's 22 clearly make them here) a low 22 player becomes a fringe one. Then when we've got 2 less teams than the AFL so really 1/9th extra talent (which equates really to 4 extra good players per team) and these mid-low 22 players become the fringe ones. White really only played 12 games last year to a reasonable standard anyway. If he was as good/athletically excellent while still retaining the strengths that make him a KPF he'd be a lot better than he is :p

    And he's also the kind of player that's hard to realistically code into the sim. I mean I think I've nailed Jack Watts pretty well who was the hardest but Gunston and White are really troubling me as is Stringer. They're my three pet projects at the moment because even if they dominated a game in this I don't think they'd be dominating it in a way which resembles how they would IRL. I think I've nailed Gunston though. It's a work in progress hence why this season's not too long. Next season will be 15 rounds, y'know.

    And yeah, I see how you would have done it and I get it (although I really think Vardy's redundant even in that setup) but am I right in saying you pretty much wanted

    Vardy to play like a traditional CHF
    White to play not dissimilarly to a Tom T. Lynch with a little more pace
    Brown to play like Brown would but from full forward
    Stringer to play more like a LeCras than a power forward
    and Gunston/Walters pretty obvious

    Because yeah, I get that. I don't think even that would be functional as Vardy's not a very good CHF right now and I just don't see White thriving in a half forward role. I think he's better off close to goal anyway. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't excel at it in this as I don't create players to perform the roles I believe they should be, I create players by looking at each skill in fffx and trying to realistically assess the player in that facet; then the sim does the work from there. So I haven't pencilled White in and my belief won't effect the output, I just don't think his skills are suited to sch a wide and high role. I don't know what the sim thinks though. Stringer isn't really a LeCras type's left nut yet either.

    I guess my point is that I think you'd be infinitely better off doing something like dropping Vardy and Stringer (or retaining stringer as fwd/mid rotation cover) and starting Rohan (whose role I think in real footy is not too dissimilar from the role you want from Jesse White. He played that wide half forward role in this game and dominated after he came on too) and then moving white into ff/chf. Rohan's got all the ability in the world but also the speed/agility to crumb far better than the Whites/Stringers right now. Just not as good in the 'power roles' - then someone like Edwards/Murdoch works. They've got the pace and defensive pressure aspects to cover the bigger forwards.

    Personally I'd have been playing Edwards/Murdoch over Stringer/Vardy even if Gunston and Brown were the only kpf's i've got.

    But yeah, while in theory your grand forward line plan might have some legs - I can't tell Vardy to stick between 50-80 nor can I tell Stringer to try and play as a lecras esque foil. I don't have that much microcontrol and if I did, perhaps things would be different, I don't know.

    I rate your side; hence calling it for 100 pts in the OP (terrible call now lol) but I think it could function a lot better with a small tinker. We'll see though; give it the season and I'd say things will click.
  14. Skippos SM Morgan

    and i forgot cyril lol

    to be honest i think all this proves is how incredibly vital cyril is to your team. pretty much he and walters (and gunston's mobility) allow you to go tall in every other spot as you get the work rate and freakish athletic ability of cyril and walters to essentially act like they're 3 and a half smalls instead of two in offense and defensively they can cover some of the less mobile talls quite well in stopping the rebound.

    But cyril out and it throws all of that, really. Walters having a nightmare forward didn't help.
  15. Mousey AJ Son

    I won't quite the individual posts but:

    - re rucks: I think a ruckman is an important part of a team but I don't think it's a do or die position like most of you guys think. We had Ottens but then had to deal with West and still were an excellent team. True, it's because we had an excellent midfield, but also it's because hit outs are almost useless unless they're hit outs to advantage. That's where having guys like Sandilands and Naitinui comes in handy, but I think beyond having an elite ruck the impact of a good ruckman isn't much more than that of an okay one.

    - forward line: yeah, Vardy and White aren't going to thrive in their positions but they're played in the half forwards so I can have more space forward, that was my thought anyway. Think I'll just drop Vardy and take the bullet and make Gunston my ruck relief or something.
  16. Mousey AJ Son

    I just hope this whole not having an elite ruckman thing doesn't make me lose to pathetic teams like Masters repeatedly - that's what I meant when saying I'll lose interest quickly.
  17. Mousey AJ Son

    Oh and yeah, I do think ruckmen are OP in this. Seeing Sinclair dominate is fucking annoying tstl.
  18. Skippos SM Morgan

    Sinclair barely plays any ruck. 20-30% of the game tops and he normally gets beaten well enough at the tap. His OPness was a result of the same kpf bug (without scoring plenty of goals though) that saw Daniher get 24 touches or Petrie 25 2 weeks straight.

    Should be by and large stopped now though, as it was in this recent round.
  19. Skippos SM Morgan

    Yeah shouldn't happen. Was more a result of your fwd line than anything else and even then it was just an abnormally bad day.
  20. Skippos SM Morgan

    You'd have Gunston as ruck relief over White?

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