Your home country's greatest XV

Discussion in 'Rugby Union Discussion' started by Hurricane, Oct 3, 2013.

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  1. BigGuns DA Astele

    To a degree I guess. If Fred Allen said Bob Scott was a better fullback than Cullen i guess you would have to consider it being that he has seen both play. But players or coaches from certain eras are probs a bit biased towards players from there day.
     
    BigGuns, Oct 4, 2013
    #61

  2. Fiery GR Smith

    Yeah I can understand Needle rating Bob Scott so highly because was a rock. I find it laughable when people don't acknowledge Cullen as the greatest running back in any position in the history of rugby union...bar Lomu.
     
    Fiery, Oct 4, 2013
    #62

  3. BigGuns DA Astele

    Cullen running would give me a semi.
     
    BigGuns, Oct 4, 2013
    #63

  4. Fiery GR Smith

    Got a full stonker every time he touched the ball tbh
     
    Fiery, Oct 4, 2013
    #64

  5. Fiery GR Smith

    Ian Kirkpatrick deserves mention here when we're talking about greatest All Blacks ever. He was outstanding. A full-powered forward who could run like a back.
     
    Fiery, Oct 4, 2013
    #65

  6. Fiery GR Smith

    Bruce Robertson needs more recognition too. Gonna let this summation talk for me:

    "Rugby has had few midfield backs as elegant and as gifted as the tall, lithely built Bruce Robertson who, through most of the 1970s and into the early 1980s, was pretty much an automatic All Black selection.
    There was a small minority who perceived some sort of defensive weaknesses in his game. They were not apparent to most other judges, who felt that the fact Robertson was not a punishing tackler was more than offset by his superb sense of positional play and his exceptional attacking ability and skills.
    As a centre Robertson was much loved by his wings and the likes of Bryan Williams, Grant Batty, Stu Wilson and Bernie Fraser were all unanimous in their praise of his impeccable service, judgement and selflessness. The number of tries these wings scored at All Black level owed much to Robertson. But he also managed 34 himself"
     
    Fiery, Oct 4, 2013
    #66

  7. Hurricane JD Hurricane

    OK I have done some analysis

    Fox leads it in points scored off the boot per test
    Fox 13.9 points per game
    Mehrtens 13.3
    DC 13.05

    You can argue that DC scored more points per game overall however as he scored 29 tries while Fox managed 1 and Andrew managed 7.

    The overall points per game belongs to Dan
    DC 14.5
    fox 14.0
    m 13.8

    Conclusion - if you just want the best kicker in your team then you will go for Fox. If you want the best offensive player then you will pick DC.
     
    Hurricane, Oct 5, 2013
    #67

  8. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    Been thinking about this.

    For England, one or two places aside, I do think a lot of players chose themselves tho. I'll let you decide which ones they might be:

    15. Jason Robinson
    14. Rory Underwood
    13. Jeremy Gusgott
    13. Will Greenwood*
    11. Peter Jackson
    10. Jonny Wilkinson
    9. Matt Dawson

    1. Jason Leonard
    2. Brian Moore
    3. Jeff Probyn
    4. Martin Johnson (c)
    5. Paul Ackford
    6. Richard Hill
    7. Peter Winterbottom
    8. Dean Richards

    I've fudged things slightly by playing Billy at 15, which allows me to play both Rory and Nijinsky on the wings. Dai Duckham obviously stiff to miss out.

    Johnno's partner at lock is a debatable call. I went for Ackford in the end because of his discipline and line out prowess.

    *Played inside centre but always wore 13 for superstitious reasons.
     
    The Boy Brumby, Oct 5, 2013
    #68

  9. Hurricane JD Hurricane

    [​IMG]

    Mean photo of your front rower here.

    No Carling? No Underwood?
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
    Hurricane, Oct 5, 2013
    #69

  10. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    Underwood is there, tbf.

    Carling was a decent leader, but didn't have Will's vision or eye for a gap. Like a lot of our players old bumchin always seemed to take the contact rather than hit the gap.

    I like a proper 2nd 5/8 at 12, me.
     
    The Boy Brumby, Oct 5, 2013
    #70

  11. Hurricane JD Hurricane

    guess I missed him hiding there in the number 14 jersey. He always matched up against us at 11. Or at least that is what my wonky memory tells me,

    On Carling, I remember that before him you had porous defence in the midfield for a season or two. And then he came along and we didn't know what to do because our crash ball techniques weren't making the gain line against him. He was also a useful distributor of the ball and we considered him to be a very good player down under (trademark our aussie friends but we sometimes break it out).

    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/_BAtrFkl92I?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    In fact looking at him in these highlights we'll take the fellow :)
     
    Hurricane, Oct 5, 2013
    #71

  12. Weeman27bob BE Force

    Would never have guessed. :laugh:


    But yeah, seems to be a pretty decent team there from what I can see, although a few are from a bit before my time.
     
    Weeman27bob, Oct 5, 2013
    #72

  13. Howe JHF Howe

    I thought Neil Back would be an auto tbh.
     
    Howe, Oct 6, 2013
    #73

  14. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    Backy was undeniably great, but Winters was an absolute beast at the breakdown too and, although that really wasn't his remit as such, made more yards ball in hand.

    He also did a lot of his best work in teams that were regularly having their arses handed to them, unlike NB who probably played in the most consistently strong period for English rugby.
     
    The Boy Brumby, Oct 7, 2013
    #74

  15. Julian BJ Taylor

    Really the best ever? I know SFA about the history of English rugby union but a league convert who had about a 5 year union career is your greatest fullback of all time?

    He was always brilliant to watch but I never realised he was rated that highly.
     
    Julian, Oct 7, 2013
    #75

  16. Howe JHF Howe

    England certainly haven't had one as good since, and presumably not for a long time before given just how good he was. And though his career might have been brief he still found the time to play 56 internationals, win a world cup, two 6N championships and shine on a Lions tour. Couldn't have done a great deal more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
    Howe, Oct 7, 2013
    #76

  17. Howe JHF Howe

    For perspective, Jonah Lomu had 63 caps.
     
    Howe, Oct 7, 2013
    #77

  18. Fiery GR Smith

    Would like to see some goal-kicking percentages because I don't think Fox would have been much better than DC. And in terms of the original argument. DC is obv a better No.10 and more worthy of a place in an all-time ABs lineup given your stats on points scored. Fox's 1 try compared to Carter's 29 is quite telling on how good they were.

    Good debate but I hope you concede now ;)
     
    Fiery, Oct 7, 2013
    #78

  19. Hurricane JD Hurricane

    Well points per game is all we have and my memory is that Fox would make more of the 8 out of ten difficulty kicks. While DC makes a lot of side line touching 10 out of 10 difficulty kicks but screws up occassionally on the intermediate levels kicks. Fox simply didn't miss the medium difficulty ones.

    Fox used to practice kicking for an hour a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year. The guy was an absolute beast at kicking penalties. You can try to make an argument that the all blacks had more penalties awarded to them back then but you would need stats to back that up. And I would counter that argument by saying the ABs score more tries these days so DC gets a lot more conversion attempts than Fox did. So I want you to concede that Fox was the better kicker :) And I based my selection purely on who was the best kicker. I will concede however that DC's all round game is better because he can actually break the line and heaven forbid actually tackle. I never saw Fox make a single tackle in his career.
     
    Hurricane, Oct 10, 2013
    #79

  20. The Boy Brumby ZJ Brumby

    We generally don't produce incendiary attacking talents like Billy. They're literally once in a blue moon. When I saw the the way he stood up Joe Roff (IIRC) in the first Loins' test of 2001 I knew it was love. He had literally half a yard to play with, dropped a shoulder and was past Roff on the outside.

    In my watching career (& I go back to the early 80s) we've only really had him & Jerry Gusgott on that level.

    I did strongly consider Josh Lewsey, who was a very solid, direct running fullback, but that would mean leaving out Rory, who was more of a pure finisher, but a puckish sprite of one with gas to burn.
     
    The Boy Brumby, Oct 10, 2013
    #80
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